On the news we have seen that the government have hidden the truth. They were either incompetant, lying or afraid of the truth. The fact is, there are 1.1 million immigrants in this country. about 300, 000 come into this country every year. Yes, we need foreign workers because they do boost the economy. But now despite Gordon Brown standing in parliament with his hypnotic chin, suggesting British jobs for British people. It has now come about that the system is unable to cope with the amount of people in this country. We have the highest unemployment of young people since the 80's. I have seen the degredations of society, due to feckless parents who couldn't pretend to care where their kids are.


But, with a crippling society, how much more can the british people take? everytime we voice our concerns, it usually follows by accusations and slingshots of "racist bigots" or "zenophobes" or "neo nazi". This isn't the case./ Britain is a small Country,but as great as it is, it isn't that great. Probably the government took Great out of context.
Now we have a housing shortage, there are now first time buyers who cannot get onto the housing ladder. If we didn't have so many people coming into this country, we wouldn't face such a critical house shortage. The truth is, we have more people than houses.

We have young british doctors who can't get jobs in the NHS, because of foreign workers. We now see university and college and even academic years as a waste of time. Originally we went to university to get a hig paying job. Now the high paying jobs cannot even afford to get on the housing ladder. Therefore we are looking at a crash. Everyone who has bought a house will lose a lot of money and equity in their house as their house loses value.

Gardens are being ruined, the greenbelt threatened with new houses because we simply have too many people in this country. Our border control is like an inspectorless turnstile or an open gate.


So, should we put caps, limits or adopt the australian point system? In Australia and America, they are doing much better in getting young people into work, trained up etc. Britain is one of the worst.

Look at our society, it is a disaster. It is broken and now our Country will be devided even more, as Scotland and Wales wish to detach away from English rule. I don't blame them. It isn't just about identity, but also that Gordon brown does things without consulting the public. He recently threw away centuries of British freedoms to the new EU constitution. We have lost our Veto and we are predominantly controled by Brussels. A country who are devided, North and South. Great, hypocrits who are dictating how the EU should be run.

With years of neglect, the immigration situation is of epic proportions. Unless we change this feckless border control, we will learn the hardway and not just British, but immigrants too will suffer.

When I think about Britain. I refer to a philosopher's words. "Useless, useless, it is all useless"!

As ive said about immigration before

These arent stock, for us to let in "enough" of to help the economy and then tell to get lost, theyre human beings, so obviously theres a moral debate here aswell. Maybe its different for me, as i dont see myself bound to this island just because i was born here. I too wish to move around A LOT in my lifetime. The jobs available here are not *my* jobs any more than someone whos lived here for years but was born in Africas. So its difficult for me to sympathise

The fact is theres a worldwide overpopulation problem. That is the main issue. So i agree, the island is crowded, and its a little uncomfortable

But from the words in your post i still cant see from your perspective. If i wanted to move back to France any time soon Id expect to be able to have shelter and be able to find work using my particular skills. Or anywhere in Europe, actually

As for Australian policy, my fiancé and i decided to move to Australia a couple of years ago. Hes a web designer (fully qualified and has been for years) and i was about to finish my A-levels. We werent let in because i didnt have a full 5 year working history (im 19 for Gods sake) and my fiancés job wasnt considered to be good enough. The whole thing cost money and was a complete nightmare

Maybe on a practical level youre right and tighter "controls" are needed, i personally dont know. I guess what im objecting to here is making it into a "THEYRE stealing OUR jobs!" thing, which is find completely ridiculous, and yes, racist. There is no them and us. Its where your mother gave birth to you for christs sake

Its hard to explain

When people talk about the problem with immigration. There are many people who assume we are being selfish and saying it is all our jobs. No, jobs are for everyone. But if you simply invite the whole world citizenship in a Country half the size of France, one can see why there is much concern. Not just that, but we are now seeing the "negative" affects of immigration. Immigrants go straight to the top of the housing list, affectively knocking Mrs Jones, pram with screaming baby and four children further down the list.

Housing shortage. Another perspective, Not enough houses to accomadate 300,000 people per year at our current level of housing. It is like trying to cram Australia's population on to the Isle of Wight. The jobcentre has become inandated with new claims in the millions. We are hearing how employers exploit immigrants by allowing them to work for low wages. it is illegal, but it still happens! Alot of what society does is illegal, but it still happens and the government don't do enough to enforce the laws.
Crimes have gone up due to immigration. NOT ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE CRIMINALS> MANY ARE GENUINELY GOOD PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY WISH TO CONTRIBUTE TO BRITISH SOCIETY!

Social services, local councils like Hillingdon spend four point two million a month just to translate for immigrants. Just to provide immigrants with free English lessons. Now I believe that they should have English lessons but they should contribute towards that!
When Terminal 5 opens, Hillingdon will have twice the yearly figure seeking sanctuary in Hillingdon.

Yes, there is a human rights debate. Sometimes you have to turn people away, but NOT BACK TO THE PLACE THEY ARE RUNNING FROM BUT ANOTHER EU COUNTRY WHO ARE WILLING TO ACCOMODATE THEM.
Why hasn't Britain spoken with France, Spain and other EU members about distribution of immigrants? There is going to be the inevitable turning away of immigrants. But this isn't be neo nazi or a racist bigot. This is being realistic, but at the same time, sympathetic. Of Course we would make sure that they didn't return to a place where they were or are at risk of torture and/or persecution.

If Britain was twice the size of Russia, there wouldn't be such an issue, but even then, we still need a border control system that counts in and out, and ensures that there are limits to whom we can give citizenship to. It sounds like Britain would rather ride on the back of immigrants than help itself.

More to the point, we say that immigrants do the jobs we don't want to do. However there are many unskilled, unqualified british citizens who are applying for those jobs, like kitchen porter, shelf filler, dustmen, cleaners and traffic wardens.We are not trying to be personal with immigrants. We are just trying to make the government and the people see that too many people, will and is having a detrimental affect to our economy.

IF, we are actually continuing to profit from immigrants, why has the treasury withdrawn money from essential services like the jobcentre, Action for employment, CDG, PDC and NEW DEAL? Social services and indeed our very schools? It is absurd to suggest that we can simply let everyone come into the country and everything will be hunkey dorey and radiantly splendid. Infact, we are heading toward a total nightmare. Too many people, more cars on the road, hardly going green is it? More houses, more C02 emissions, more fines from the UN, this may result in sanctions and then of course, education, the very backbone of human existence, will simply be a waste of time. Because it wouldn't matter how much we put into qualifications, we simply wouldn't get onto the housing ladder or if we were doctors to be, we wouldn't get into the NHS. And that is just the start. 1.1 million immigrants have now been counted. But that figure may be higher.

I am not racist, and I don't think many who are concerned are racist. lets stop playing the race card:)

I am not racist, and I don't think many who are concerned are racist. lets stop playing the race card:)I only mentioned "race" in regards to comments like "theyre stealing our jobs" you often hear...and believed it kind of sounded like that was the point you were making by talking about how BRITISH people are now finding it hard to find jobs...see? It links up. Jobs are scarce but it doesnt really matter about the birthplace of the people who GET the jobs...

What matters is there are too many people generally, and in your last post i think you made this a lot clearer and explained better, without the overtones of nationality being an issue

You make some good points

P.s-I hate it when the "race card" is used unnecessarily or out of context too

mmigrants go straight to the top of the housing list, affectively knocking Mrs Jones, pram with screaming baby and four children further down the list.

Mrs Jones thinking twice before creating 5 new human beings would be a big help too:)

Immigrants go straight to the top of the housing listNot true; migrants from the EU accession countries need to be in work for 12 months before they become eligible for benefits and housing assistance, they certainly do not "go straight to the top of the list", in fact there are limitations placed on them meaning they have fewer rights than native Britons. Once they are here and registered working they become eligible for equal treatment along with all other residents and taxpayers who fall on hard times, exactly as they should...

You also conflate the issue of asylum with that of economic migration, economic migration is a boon to the economy not a drain and provides workers for the jobs shortage we have and taxpayers for the aging population; we have a legal obligation to provide refuge for asylum seekers under international law. Asylum seekers have extremely limited ability to work and limited access to benefits etc, asylum is a quite different issue to that of economic migration.

Your bigoted and dangerous myths and mis-information are becoming somewhat boring, and you're becoming a bit of a one trick pony here J0hn, I think we've been over this issue about 5 or 6 hundred times. You may not think yourself xenophobic but many of your tacit assumptions clearly demonstrate that you, in fact, are.

i think sometimes people should actually try to become an immigrant somewhere themselves before they natter on about how easy it is to get into a country, get benefits, etc.

obviously, j0hn, you have not a clue what it is really like.

posts like this really disgust me.

and it's Xenophobe not Zenophobe. ;) (being a spelling nazi me) :D


*edit*

... what i think we should adopt is a free borders for all approach, worldwide.
obviously there needs to be some security measures to make sure that people are safe; but it should not cost £600 to apply for a visa to just be denied!
there should be free borders. if you want to get up and leave and go to australia, somewhere in europe, the States wherever and work and live for a few years then come back ... that is fine, do it, no problems.

if someone wants to come here and do the same ... that is fine.

again ... free borders for all
we are all human
it is all our planet
there should not be restrictions as to where we can and can not all travel/live/learn/and experience.

Immigrants go straight to the top of the housing list This must be one of the more persistent urban myths, I'm sure I've been hearing it since the 60s.

I predicted that I would be called a neo nazi or a zenophobe. I have been unemployed for three years. I cannot blame immigrants for my loss of job. It was my own fault and I should have known better.

I have been unemployed in the past, yet again it was either my fault or bad luck with the company. I remember New Deal used to have proper training programmes that would get young people equiped, job ready and with either qualifications or training under their belt. I remember only in 2003 when I was put on a Music studios city and guilds course, as part of my thirteen week provision training. It was useful, I was learning something I wanted to do, and I began applying for jobs appropriate to what I was training for. I nearly got the job. Unfortunately I was given the wrong test sheet when applying for Turnkey. They gave me an advanced sound engineering sheet, as opposed to the music technology I was studying. I got a few of the questions. Got a few right, i mean. But it wasn't enough. Anyway, this shows that at one time, new Deal was affective. In the last four years, we have had more immigrants coming into this country with ease. Some, many I should say have good intentions at heart and genuinely have skills that we needed. But due to this labour government, our border control has become a joke. Anybody and anyone can come in to this country and out again without being accounted for. As a result, the NEw deal requires a thirteen week course, just searching through newspapers, 6 hours a day, 30 hours a week. No training, so more and more young people are not equiped or job ready. Where has the money gone?

Recent figures were wrong but then it was established that we have 250,000 people coming in to the country long term per year and within four and a half years, it equates to 1.5 million. There like I have said are good people wanting to contribute to British society. Unfortunately there are many who exploit this folly in British border control. We are talking about people who wish to blow up a London underground train or blow up a bus. We are talking about terrorists. The genuine migrants who have settled in this country are just as much at risk as us native born. Labour is not acting on border control because they know that it means more money for the government through taxes. Yet, the public never see it or benefit from it. We have the 2012 olympic games. Big saga, the budget. If we really did benefit from everyone who entered into this country, surely our system wouldn't be stretched to breaking point, young English Doctors would be able to get jobs in the NHS and we would not have such high house prices, or lack of houses to accomodate. Now I am not saying I oppose immigrants, but there realistically comes a point where we have to say enough is enough. We are full. Britain isn't the size of Russia or America. We are now having greenbelt land threatened with building applications. We have to accomadate our visitors somewhere.
I ask for tighter border controls, a three year closed border until we can negotiate with our EU neighbours as to whether they can accomodate.

I once heard a joke. In Poland, they are having trouble with the water supply. Unfortunately all their plumbers are over here.

I know, it is a bit below the belt. I am not a racist, or zenophobe and am certainly not a neo nazi. Infact I detest all these attributes of what humanity can do.

Finally, Why should anyone who is proud of their country not be so proud? Why is it that now us Brits are second class to iimigration? Surely there needs to be a balance?

Additional: I knew that there would be a lot of flaming. This subject is quite sensitive. I regret starting this thread. Perhaps it should be locked?but keep the poll open.

Finally, I don't believe that it is right we continue to roll out the red carpet to foreigners and leave the locals to fend for themselves. Apart of equality is about everyone getting a fair share in the economy. It is about people rather than race. It doesn't matter if you are black, white or purple. We should all have equal rights.

At the moment the government is rolling out the red carpet to all foreigners, whilst leaving the locals to fend for themselves. If you have no qualifications, no training. Finding work is difficult because the only jobs you can do is the ones everyone hates. This is exactly the same jobs that foreigners are looking for. It is okey if you are qualified, but if you are not. One can see how the system is straining to cope. As a result, people like me get put on New deal training courses where you spend six hours a day reading out of date newspapers. Like being in a room and they have chucked in a few newspapers, a phone line and a water fountain. So much for New deal.
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http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif (being a spelling nazi me) http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
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I am not a nazi by the way, I am being realistic. And as for the smilie :rolleyes:

There is no shortage of jobs, that's why so many migrants are finding Britain such a great place to come and instantly get work. I guess some people are just unemployable or too picky and not as hardworking as others. Be grateful that all these immigrants are coming and paying their taxes in order to support YOU. They are paying for you to sit in a nice warm library using the internet...

There is no shortage of jobs, that's why so many migrants are finding Britain such a great place to come and instantly get work. I guess some people are just unemployable or too picky and not as hardworking as others.
I find that quite ignorant, if not offensive.


They are paying for you to sit in a nice warm library using the internet...
Once again, I don't know where you get the idea that unemployed people sit at a library all day. But if they are at the library, they are using the internet to jobsearch;)

I believe that one must be a bit "picky". It is overtly expensive living in London.

Sorry if I caused offense J0hn:)

I wasn't really offended. Just surprised. :)

I voted for openminded. I think it's very important to be openminded, like this you don't reject a good solution because it sounds bizarre.

These days, one just goes with the wind and are quite afraid to challenge the status quo. I aimed to break the mould, but even I fear using certain vowels.

a...e...
i, o, u...............

:leaving:

I find it really hard to form a singular opinion on this. On one hand, i think yes, free-border thing; i love to travel, i do believe that it is everyones planet, and we should be free to roam where we please, find work where we please and make lives for ourselves wherever we please.

But then this country and others are becoming over-populated. And the number of stories you hear on the news about illegal immigrants who come over here, don't get jobs etc and go on to kill a hard working father of two for £80 and a mobile phone makes me sick. And i know that, obviously, thats not just something illegal immigrants do, regular British people do it too, i hope you don't think im being racist or in anyway discriminative, but we don't need to be letting more people in that are just going to kill or blow us up.

But then there are those immigrants that come in and genuinely work hard and deserve to reap what they sow, as it were.

I don't know....its such a dangerous, complicated world now....

Nah, Britain needs freer markets and property rights. Overpopulation is only a factor when government is managing too much, imo.

My final conclusion is: Britain is well and truly doomed. If anything needs to be done to change our path to destruction. It would be for the common citizen to raise his placard, shout at the top of his or her voice, and march the streets in a healthy mob of thousands. Riots. In France, the people stand up for their rights. In Britain, we just roll over dead, like that androidy thing out of Hitch hikers Guide.

By 2020, British people will colonize Europe, thus having an immediate affect on the official languages of these European Countries. We will see Little Britain in many parts of France, Poland and Germany. This might not be such a bad thing, but then our youth crime might be brought over to Countries where the native young person, is unfamiliar with such ultra violence and excessive knife and gun crime.

Where are your parents from john ?

I think it's worth a try, maybe having a trial phase of the system to see how it goes. But because I don't know the processes of immigration I'm not really in a position to voice my opinion on the subject. But I do agree that this government is not doing Britain any good.

If you want a vision of today's Britain and its youth culture, watch A Clockwork Orange. It may have been set in the 70's, but really, has society really moved forwards? No...yeh, if yeh, maybe in the wrong direction. I reckon that Britain is on a verge of dependency with America, Lala Euroland, because Britain cannot support itself. We need other people to come and run our trains, comb our bald heads, clean the toilets, yet for their hardwork, we pay them peanuts, we exploit them. The government in its infinite wisdom, reckons that it is illegal to undercut foreign workers pay. Well it still happens, yet no enforcement. However, they are hot on the heels of all those Brits who are doing benefit fraud. I mean come on, Britain has lost its way.


But thats my personal opinion.

Where are your parents from john ?
My father was Turkish, My mother was Welsh:)

the population count is a mess because many immigrants are using multiple identities in different areas...& getting away with it.
many are scamming atm machines & if they are caught they give a false identity for that area & simply disappear without trace.
all immigrant criminals should instanly be deported !

The state of Britain is such dire, ever since we joined the EU has emerged on Teletext letters. It costs Britain 100,000 pounds an hour to be apart of the EU. We have to provide schools, homes and other things for half of Europe, yet our own economy is being stripped to its core due to the influx of mass proportions, of Eu migrants. Though this is ideal as a seperate debate, I cannot help thinking that somehow Britain, despite helping Europe in two world wars, is getting a bad deal.

Apparently Sir Winston Churchill in his 1946 speech in Vietnam, called for a "United States of Europe".

Can you imagine this? USE!

To be honest, I feel as though Britain is being used. And as this isn't normal in the scheme of what should be. We should add AB. Aristocratic Brussel's United States of Europe. Who calls the shots? Brussels, Who says whether we should have border controls? Brussels. Named after a vegatable that nobody likes. Coincidence, I think not.

Named after a vegatable that nobody likes. Coincidence, I think not.

Sprouts are awesome, anyone who thinks otherwise is a filthy commie.

My father was Turkish, My mother was Welsh:)
What plans do you have then regarding your own relocation then, when are you going back home ?

The state of Britain is due to the continued failings of this Labour government. Even last night, we saw illegal immigrants trying to get to Britain. Yet when they get to Britain, they often stay or are paid 4000 pounds to leave. I recently found this out from a good source. Even now,under labour, illegal workers are being given NINOs. No wonder there is such hostility toward immigrants. Because there are lots of immigrants working,but the rest of us are priced out and sitting at home. THough this is not what I want for my life. But like other British citizens like me, we are being dragged through hyped up Programme development centres and are treated worse than a prisoner when it comes to going to the jobcentre.

All in all, I stick by my guns. Enoch Powell was right. I am just amazed that many people just seem to believe that this Country is infinite, rather than a finite peace of land. This isn't being a neo nazi, so before the Name callers, branders and other empty headed insults head my way. Lets just say that I welcome ethnicity in Britain.At the same time we all have to be realistic and get the balance right. Under this government, the doors are open to all. Even potential terrorists. How can we feel safe and secure under labour? I am aware labour are good at other things, but when it comes to the needs of its own people, it is quickly dashed away and surrendered to the EU.

I once read in a paper when George Bush was re elected. It said, "How can 20 million people be so stupid". Perhaps when everyone keeps voting labour, then swoon when labour get it wrong again and again and again. They then respond with, "Oh"!

Britain's crime rate upon London streets. Youth crime is sky rocketing, because kids can get away with it. I saw in the news that some youths were posing on police vehicles with guns, sub machine guns and samurai swords.Yet the police didn't have enough evidence to prosecute. Had these individuals been adults. Trust thy words, it would have been a completely different story.

Britain has lost its way. Now we are in runnings with Russia. I predict Cold war 2.
Perhaps if we had another government, things might change for the better. Meaning prosperity for all, even immigrants. And perhaps the first step is to get out of the EU. It costs us 100,000 pounds an hour to be in. WE have an mass influx of EU migrants. Yet we are expected to create millions of houses, schools and entertainment arenas for half of fucking Europe. Yet looking back,lack of houses, good schools in Britain. THe housing market is falling. People aren't secure and confident in it no more. I predict another recession. When house market crashes, we will return to an era where Maggie Thatcher invaded Falklands, and there was mass high unemployment. Britain isn't going forwards, it is going backwards. In another twenty years, Britain will become an economic ruin. Even Iraq would be better off than us. WHilst labour continue to destroy this country. Forgive me thy brothers for voicing my opinions loudly. IN the end, us the citizens have to make that choice of who we want to run our country. A United States of Europe is precisely what Brussels wants. Do we want to be another America?

I don't think JOhn's comments are racist or that he himself is a racist, in fact i believe this debate needs to happen publicly. I find that the language we use is generally not useful to describe our opinions or feelings; it is very difficult to have this conversation without people pointing the finger and shouting racist (perhaps it's just me that can't express myself but i don't think that's true).

I came to this website to rediscover the openmindedness and general hippyness i had until a few years ago. I'm surprised that this debate is found here because i imagined that the (assumed) hippy standpoint (politically correct) wouldn't tolerate this debate. I never questioned my whiteness or my national identity because it had never been an issue before i moved to London where i found racism against me an everyday experience. I label myself white and English because those are the labels that the people of London gave me, and i'm happy to wear them. Travelling on the bus from Tottenham to Leyton, changing at Walthamstow was life changing. Whenever i got on the bus, people sucked their teeth (tutted) at me because i was white. I had people say to me that: The English are all racist, drunk and violent. I put up with this racist treatment for three years before leaving London. I've lost my innocence where it comes to immigration and the race debate. It often seems to me that racism in this country is not tolerated unless it's against English people. Merely describing yourself as English is often interpreted as racist, even when that label was imposed by other people. I wish i still had the innocence of thought that we are all one race, the human race, but i find that that attitude doesn't take into account culture, and cultural differences. When i tell people that i experienced racism for being white and English, people assume that i am a racist, yet if a black man says he has experienced racism, he will get sympathy and probably the support of the legal system.

I do not use abusive terms to describe people of different colour skin than me, i do not or will not vote BNP, yet i can't help feeling that we are being pushed from many different directions, and have little support or protection from authorities. Racism doesn't come easily to me, and i do find it difficult to talk about these issues because we as a society have been taught to be tolerant to other people.

It has made me terribly unhappy and at times easy to anger, i have made an appointment to visit a cognitive therapist so that i can hopefully retrain my habitual thought processes (positive brain change). Whether i'm succsessful or not in changing my thought processes so that i can be happier and less stressed, this will not change the fact that there is noone in the political arena speaking up for English people. Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland all have their own assemblies or parliament to protect their interests but Westminster still wants to talk about British issues ignoring the (often poorly expressed) concerns of English people. Noone is protecting English interests. The BNP are trying to address this, but anyone of slight intelligence or conscience will simply see them as backward. There is a growing feeling of intolerance in this society and even the most intelligent person is prey to bouts of stupidity, the subtleties of this debate and all the issues surrounding it make it almost impossible to address without a backlash of finger pointing and name calling.

I personally don't know what to do except work on myself to try to change my world (perception), but racism will still be rife in this country. Equally intolerable as racist attitudes towards immigrants, is the false moral high-ground of the politically correct.

Now look i wanted to add to the debate not kill it, so here is my proposal: Forget getting out of Europe, we should get out of the UK, England should be independent of British politics, self rule, let Westminster flail around like a dying fly as as it continues to ignore the desires , concerns and will of English people. English people have always been bullied by the London- based government. I don't recognise their authority anyway, they have gone too far and you must be crazier than I am if you think they will ever do anything worthwhile for us.

Well some of what you've said is sensible. I don't think you have to be black or Asian to have experienced racism. Racism works in every direction, though I would say historically prejudices of any kind have tended to work most strongly against minorities, those outside the mainstream and those with the least social, political and cultural power/capital. I'm half Pakistani and half English and I've experienced racism from both Pakistanis and the English. It's the classic in-group/out-group, us and them narrow minded mentality that everyone really should aspire to rise above. That you've been a victim of racism does not mean you should lower yourself to that level, though I think you already know that.

As for breaking up the UK, I couldn't disagree more. I'm very much in favour of the unity of the United Kingdom and can't see much benefit to any of its constituent countries were they to go solo....