In 71' I spent the year with about 150 other people at a Northern California commune-it was open to anyone at any time and free-the only rules were to respect other people and not build your "house" so close to your neighbors-You wanted to stay out of eyesight of other places.
The tough part about living with this many people is being able to always remember their feelins and not say or do anything to offend others. Even jokingly' it's important to remember that people are different and not everyone will be aggreeable or friendly all the time-The good part is learning to live together in harmony. It takes time and patience but after a while people learn to be together and happy.
My job was the bus driver-I took people to town once week to shop for supplies and that was always a fun ride.

The commune was eventually closed by the county for health code violations-no flush toilets or running water-they came and burned down all the buildings and we had to move-the owner stayed.
If you want to try this life-be ready to be open to other people and learn exceptance and trust. If you start a new commune on bare land' be sure to follow the law and do it by code to keep the county off your back-In the long run it's worth the effort to do it legally. We used to have cops raiding the place in the middle of the night looking for runaways and people with warrants-that tends to create paranoia that you don't need-

I would love to know more about that experience at the commune,since I plan starting one someday

same i plan to start 1 after i've seen the big wide world, but you never know i might change my mind but the idea does sound really lovley

...

My job was the bus driver-I took people to town once week to shop for supplies

...

The commune was eventually closed by the county for health code violations-no flush toilets or running water-they came and burned down all the buildings and we had to move-the owner stayed.

...



That (and variations on the theme) was the fate of all of the real communes:
the ones that were actually involved in trying to create a new and better society.

But this vulnerability only existed because of the essential hypocrisy of
the commune members.

We were living an elitist lifestyle: not everyone could live like us. There had
to be people working in all of the industries that made the busses and parts
and tools and fuel and roads possible. And to make the supplies that we went
in to town to purchase.

Littlefoot

"The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a
comfortable living from a small piece of land."

-- Abraham Lincoln

I lived @ Libre, Red Rocks and Ortivies Farm. These are all located in the Huerfano valley in S. Colorado. I also lived at Earth Family Farm (but that something I don't brag about).

Lots of times there wasn't electricity (kerosine lamps) and we went to the outhouse. The outhouse at Red Rocks commune was the biggest. It had 6 seats and a picture window view. But it was stinky.

Ortivies Farm had the best garden. AAA commune is there as well, but I didn't live there. Ortivies Farm had a Rainbow School at one time.

Libre is where I have the most memories, and was still going over there up until I moved here to Hawai'i. I am hoping to go back when they have their birthday party. They have it every 5 years now instead of every year.

Red Rocks dome was demolished finally back in the 90's. There is only one family living up there.

I love my heritage. Sans the goats tho~

I lived @ Libre, Red Rocks and Ortivies Farm. These are all located in the Huerfano valley in S. Colorado. I also lived at Earth Family Farm (but that something I don't brag about).

Lots of times there wasn't electricity (kerosine lamps) and we went to the outhouse. The outhouse at Red Rocks commune was the biggest. It had 6 seats and a picture window view. But it was stinky.

Ortivies Farm had the best garden. AAA commune is there as well, but I didn't live there. Ortivies Farm had a Rainbow School at one time.

Libre is where I have the most memories, and was still going over there up until I moved here to Hawai'i. I am hoping to go back when they have their birthday party. They have it every 5 years now instead of every year.

Red Rocks dome was demolished finally back in the 90's. There is only one family living up there.

I love my heritage. Sans the goats tho~

I too have many wonderful memories from the Hippy Days. Life on the
communes was like going on a long campout. You worked hard but it
was all play. Nothing like living in the straight world.

The only problem was, and this was our downfall: we were dependent
on the straight world. We couldn't live the way we did without them
doing their thing.

Littlefoot

Life can be a party in a commune, but shit happens and emotion flare after a while, people need their own. I don't mind sharing, but there are a few things that, to me, are sacrad. My kids, my honor, my equality, my man and my personal belongings.

People don't do well in large quantities in a small area. Rules have to be made and adheard to, to a point where it was all about the rules, as cilcks were formed it became devided into classes, upper elite, middleotheins, and the down right nasties. The elite fancied themself 'hipper' then the rest and were like the prepies in high school and sat around getting high descussing matters of importance. The middleothiens we the everyday hippies that did their macrame and raised gardens and babies, running naked in the sun. The nasties were the free fares, doing, coming and going, hard core rockers and danger seekers.

When it's close quarters and people hunger, covet, and live by no mans rule, things can be strained trying to acommodate everyones needs/desires. So many different trips going on at one time. Trying to create a blissfull atmosphier around all that energy can blow your mind. Not everyone that attaches themselves to 'A Family' is cool, there are discontents is every group.

So many different ideas unleashed, the creative collective constant in exchanging views of a better way of organization, creating conflicts within the circle.

It seems to me after surviving the sixties in The Haight and being in a commune for several yrs, that the women did most of the work and raised the babies and brought in the money and the men sat around 'talking' about the doing. Of couse the men would rise to the occation to make a quick buck, but an everyday job was not the norm.

Like myself, most women from that era ended up alone to raise their kids on walfare. Some found jobs, some lost their kids to CPS, then there were the lucky few that( like me) found the dream we all dreamed of having, a partner that you love/loves you, a close family full of love and a home in the country where you can live comfortably in your own skin, fresh air, clean water, wholesome food, living off the land peacefully with nature.

Communes were formed to give strenght to 'The Cause', to ban together and pool availible resources to support the body of people of likemindedness. An us against them coallation. We wanted to form a new world, a utopia for all mankind. To live and love freely, equaily and naturaly unpon the earth.

When a community is built, there has to be some sort of plan, rules to go by. Rules did not suit everyone and there was inner turmoil that manifested as negitive vibes.'A house devided will soon fall'. We were kids back then ourselves, making discoveries and discissions without much experience to go on. We were the pioneers, blazing a trail for the ones that follow. We made our mistakes and our accomplishments and we grew into ourselves.

The ones that follow will have an easier road to walk and roadsigns to go by.. maybe the youngers of today can make it manifest as it was originaly dreamed of happening.

I hope so, because it was a greand idea, it can work, if all the workers take part in the happening.

Bright Blessings
sh

shameless_heifer wrote:

"Life can be a party in a commune, but shit happens and emotion flare after a while, people need their own. I don't mind sharing, but there are a few things that, to me, are sacrad. My kids, my honor, my equality, my man and my personal belongings."

I don't follow a lot of that. What do you mean by 'your children are sacred'
Do you mean that no one else can tell them something that contradicts something
you have told them?

What do you mean by 'your man is sacred'. Does that mean that if you have
chosen a man who doesn't want to only sleep with you that it's someone
else's fault?

All children are everyone's children. You can't own another human being.
That's slavery.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but I just can't imagine what else
you could mean.

As for your honor, if it exists, no one can take it away from you. So I don't
understand what you mean there, either.

Littlefoot

I would love to know more about that experience at the commune,since I plan starting one someday

What kind of commune do you want to know about? Most of them, pariticularly
now, are just country retreats for a priveleged few. They are not hassled by
the System because they aren't doing anything radical or progressive at all.

They can't eixst without the System.

Real communes are quite a different thing. They practice a lifestyle that can
be shared by everyone on the planet. They have to camouflage themselves
from the System or they will be destroyed by the System. Just like Robspace2
reported in the post that started this thread.

They are materially self-sufficient in a sustainable way. And this is what
camouflages them from the System more than anything else: They don't
have to go to town for supplies and they don't have any vehicles.

LIttlefoot

Hi Shameless. I know exactly what you mean. It just boils down to having your own space to be yourself and do what you do and have your own LIFE without HAVING to include a house full of other people's ideas, opinions, etc. The first time my home turned into a "commune" I ended up living in the haymow of the barn BY MYSELF. I grew my OWN garden. Gave up on trying to cook communal meals. Everything of a "group" nature, I finally just removed myself from due to so many opinionated and tight assed high holies having "taken charge" of all these oh-so-groovie projects that mostly never went anywhere. The only thing that DID come of it in the long run was a bakery, but the ones who started it were impossible to work with and they eventually got a place in town to run the bakery out of. THANK HEAVENS!

My space hasn't been pushed on like that in a very long while, and mostly people just come and go any more. If someone gets too "embedded" and they are being bothersome, they get moved on.

I really think it's FAR EASIER for the most part to be a survivalist on your own or with one or two other people at most. If you want to be social, you can go visit someone. And when you're done, you go home. You just don't have to TAKE CARE OF ALL THOSE EXTRA FOLKS, and you don't have to worry about getting in anybody's way or hurting anybody's feelings. Any type of large family is hard to live in close quarters with. If you had to worry about actual survival on top of dealing with everybody's personal "stuff", you'd all die or drive yourself crazy trying!

I HAVE lived with extra folks in the house or on the farm that just resonated WELL with everything, BUT, it's always been at MY home. I could never be totally comfortable trying to live at someone ELSE'S home or on somebody else's land. Somebody else's space feels real limiting to me, no matter HOW well we all get along. Better to just try to keep your own space and your own survival going and have good neighbors who would lend a hand IF you needed them. Communes tend to be too CLOSE. Communities of somewhat like-minded folks tend to be just right.

I only speak for what I know and experienced. Things may have been different for you, then my experience. Being male may change the outlook on the way things happened. It was Very different for women.

Since you are not a woman then I doubt that you would agree to my point of view, twas the same back then.. men had their own agenda, which basically revolved around screwing as many women as possible and walking away scot free from any responsibility of the outcome! Leaving one woman to fuck another one.. that's what I saw..

That my friend was the way it was in communes.

If I feel more comfortable being with a man that is happy with ONE woman, that is my choice. Most women want manogamy. Most men wanted many women to use up, but not to stay and provide for. And that is the way it was. You can rearange it how ever you please but the facts are the facts.. how many babies were born without a fathers in the 'good ol daze, and who raised them?

Yes They are MY kids, My resposibilty. Where was the father of my baby daughter that was sick, where was my support, sitting up night and day comforting her little soul. Where was the Village that was to help raise my children.. gone. I understand why you feel you are missing the point, you don't want to addmit it. You don't want the truth. You want the fantacy.. well the fantacy is over and real life is at hand. Who came to my daughters funeral, who cared for her, who still crys for her.. ME!!!!!! Not any commune that's for sure.

You people, listen well. Get your own, make your own way. Depend on yourselves and you will survive, no one can do it for you, not a commune not anyone but yourself and the choices You make. Relaying on someone esle is to be dissipointed bc people in the long run will do what makes them happy and not for the good of the all.. you will end up with nothing if the ship sinks, but with your own, you have only yourself to trust in. No excuse as to it being someone esles fault bc you failed/suceeded. No conflicts as to which discission is the right one, it's your discission as to how you want to live your life, not a collective.

Ever try to live off the land in a commune in the dead of winter, no food, no warmth, just extreamly hard work with little reward. Ever try to split a cherry tomatoe in ten different ways? Ever go to put on ur undies and find them on someones elses ass. or walk in on 'your mate' in someone elses bed the day after giving birth to their child.. Did you ever wonder who the father of your child was bc you fucked too many to know for sure. Did you ever have to go see doctor Dave at the free clinic for the clap or worse. Did you ever have to have stiches in your face bc a 'brother' got drunk and used you for a punching bag. Have you ever faced a madman with a gun in your face bc someone ripped them off, or they wanted to rip you off. You think things like that don't happen bc we are Hippies?!?

I only say what I know to be the TRUTH about what went on in communes. From living it not speculating about it. It all sounds so galmorus, but it is real life and not a fantacy. You men can color it any color you want, but the nature of it will remain the same.

Bright Blessing in the new freedom, the freedom of selfsuffiency.
sh

I only speak for what I know and experienced. Things may have been different for you, then my experience. Being male may change the outlook on the way things happened. It was Very different for women.

Since you are not a woman then I doubt that you would agree to my point of view, twas the same back then.. men had their own agenda, which basically revolved around screwing as many women as possible and walking away scot free from any responsibility of the outcome! Leaving one woman to fuck another one.. that's what I saw..

That my friend was the way it was in communes.


That's the way it was on the communes that you experienced. It
wasn't anything like that on the ones that I experienced.



If I feel more comfortable being with a man that is happy with ONE woman, that is my choice. Most women want manogamy.


Actually, most women fool around on their mates. Much more so than
the men do. All that talk about men being horny all the time is just
wishful thinking on their parts.


Most men wanted many women to use up, but not to stay and provide for. And that is the way it was. You can rearange it how ever you please but the facts are the facts.. how many babies were born without a fathers in the 'good ol daze, and who raised them?

Yes They are MY kids, My resposibilty. Where was the father of my baby daughter that was sick, where was my support, sitting up night and day comforting her little soul. Where was the Village that was to help raise my children.. gone. I understand why you feel you are missing the point, you don't want to addmit it. You don't want the truth. You want the fantacy.. well the fantacy is over and real life is at hand. Who came to my daughters funeral, who cared for her, who still crys for her.. ME!!!!!! Not any commune that's for sure.


You can't own another human being. As the parent of a child, whether by
birth or adoption, you have the primary responsibility of raising them. But
everyone you and they come into contact with contributes to their raising
and there's nothing you can do about it. Nor should you. You don't know
everything. And you are wrong about some things. As we all are.


You people, listen well. Get your own, make your own way. Depend on yourselves


That is a statement that needs a lot qualification. You couldn't live very long
without the involvement of other people. You produce very little or nothing
of what you consume.



and you will survive, no one can do it for you, not a commune not anyone but yourself and the choices You make. Relaying on someone esle is to be dissipointed bc people in the long run will do what makes them happy and not for the good of the all.. you will end up with nothing if the ship sinks, but with your own, you have only yourself to trust in. No excuse as to it being someone esles fault bc you failed/suceeded. No conflicts as to which discission is the right one, it's your discission as to how you want to live your life, not a collective.

Ever try to live off the land in a commune in the dead of winter, no food, no warmth, just extreamly hard work with little reward. Ever try to split a cherry tomatoe in ten different ways? Ever go to put on ur undies and find them on someones elses ass. or walk in on 'your mate' in someone elses bed the day after giving birth to their child.. Did you ever wonder who the father of your child was bc you fucked too many to know for sure. Did you ever have to go see doctor Dave at the free clinic for the clap or worse. Did you ever have to have stiches in your face bc a 'brother' got drunk and used you for a punching bag. Have you ever faced a madman with a gun in your face bc someone ripped them off, or they wanted to rip you off. You think things like that don't happen bc we are Hippies?!?

I only say what I know to be the TRUTH about what went on in communes. From living it not speculating about it. It all sounds so galmorus, but it is real life and not a fantacy. You men can color it any color you want, but the nature of it will remain the same.

Bright Blessing in the new freedom, the freedom of selfsuffiency.
sh

You know the truth about the communes you experienced. There were about
3000 communes in about 34 states in 1970. And the diversity among them
was staggering.

I moved onto a commune that was a member of an alliance of a number of
communes right out of high school.

My experience was nothing like yours. We knew what we were doing and
we worked together and we worked hard. And it was fun. We were
trying to create a new and better civilization and we came very close to succeeding.

Nobody tried to own anyone. Real love means freedom.

Nobody was cold or lonely or hungry or over-worked. The very few children
we had were raised by everyone with their biological parents' full approval
and gratitutude: Raising kids is a lot of work.

Sure, we all had our private spaces that no one entered without our consent.
That's a must. But we shared just about everything else.

When urban hippies showed up, wanting to lie around and smoke dope
all time and fuck off, they soon learned that they wouldn't have food
or shelter unless they worked and if they pestered a woman who wasn't
interested they'd get one warning and then be shown the door if they
persisted. Some had to be physically expelled. Most of them had great
hippy costumes and wanted to get in the faces of the local Straights, and we
didn't allow that at all.

Most of the didn't hang around long. Neither did couples who were into
monogamy who expected everyone else to become asexual in their
presence. They wanted everyone else to do the work of maintaining
their relationship for them and they were a drag. Parents who tried
to tell everyone else what they could say and how they could act
in the presence of their children didn't last long either. They too were
a total drag.

I have never been happier in my life than I was when I lived on the commune.
Which we called a 'village', actually. It was a wonderful way to live.

I did visit quite a few communes that weren't a part of our alliance. Most
of them were just party places for the urban hippies who were living
off money from their folks. Or from the government. Some were serious
homesteads, but nothing like the ones I was involved with. Some were
devoted to practicioners of various religions. Some of those were
beautiful places and some were a real bummer.

Littlefoot

Your right Little Foot, there are many facets in the web of time. As I stated in my first sentance.. " I only speak from what I know and experienced, what you experienced may be different". There are two sides to every coin, I think it is better to know both sides before making a life changing discission. To only look at the bright side just colors it rose and does not deliver a clear picture.

There were beautiful times and places, but it wasn't a 24/7 party. I did mention that the country was the best place to be and 'the dream' we all strived for was in nature. Conflicts exist even in the most tranquil of us. To be otherwise is to be non-human and if we were not to learn, knowing or thinking we know enough or at least more then the next person. We were all learning.

Every man I know that will admitt it, will confirm their desire for many women in their youth. As for women who had several parteners they were usually unattached, but looking for that special someone in their heart. The Ladies I knew, prefered monogamy in their relationship. There are always exceptions to the rule.

I have no wish to offend you or anyone else, I just talk about what I lived and observed when I was into it. I have grown a lot since then and hopefully learn enough to keep me afloat till my demise.

That's aother side about being in a likeminded enviroment. No two humans think excatly the same, everyone is an individuel. To take our individuality away is to have given up our free will, and that no one is privy to. It's all about change, we change, our needs change, our lives change as we mature and grow into ourselves..what or how we achive the knowledge and what/how we as individuels process and use knowledge is on an individuel basis.

The communal Spirit still lives in many originals, alto the ( most of them) do not live in a communal enviroment. They still hang together, the ones that are physicaly close, but the ones that still have the Spirit are forever connected to one another. A bond, much like soldiers have for their brothers in arms attitude.

The ones of today do not have that connectedness. They have not traveled the same path.

We were all(mostly) urban hippies, we can from middle class american families all over the country, there were few that weren't. At least that's how it was in the places I traveled, and I traveled a lot, to many states of physical presence and through many Spiritual experiences.

No one has to agree with me at all. It was what I lived, it matters little what the thoughts about it are, they remain the same as they did when they took place. There are no judgements just rememberences.

Bright Blessings
sh

shameless_heifer

I do enjoy reading your posts. They are like short stories.
So many important and challenging issues to face. We are all individuals
yet we are also part of a larger whole. And a larger whole beyond that...

Like a town is itself and unique and individual, but it is also a part of a county
which is a part of a state...

LIttlefoot

My understanding about communes is in order to make them work, you need a detailed agreement in writing, like a prenup, that everyone reads, and everyone signs. That way everyone has the same vision as to what to expect, and what's expected of them. Then if there's a conflict, you've got something to refer to for resolution. Obviously, if everyone has the same vision and values to begin with, it's not an issue, but people change.

Howdy, MY.

My understanding about communes is in order to make them work, you need a detailed agreement in writing, like a prenup, that everyone reads, and everyone signs. That way everyone has the same vision as to what to expect, and what's expected of them. Then if there's a conflict, you've got something to refer to for resolution. Obviously, if everyone has the same vision and values to begin with, it's not an issue, but people change.

That's basically true. Same with this society-economy-culture, which is really
just a huge commune.

(a materially self-sufficient unit)

But the real rules governing this one aren't the ones that are written down. Most
Americans couldn't tell you what's in the Constituion, and that includes most of
the people who call themselves 'patriots'. Including the soldiers who swear to
defend it with their lives.

And indeed, America violates the Constitution whenever it feels like it, starting
with unilaterally abrogating 200 Treaties with the 'Native Americans' (a treaty
that has been ratified by Congress and signed by the President becomes part
of the Constitution according that same Constitution). But not ending with
the invasion of Iraq, which was also un-Constitutional for the same reason.

America's real Constitution is: Every citizen has the right to acumulate as
much material wealth as they can get away with, and it doesn't matter
what they have to do to get it as long as they can present the illusion of acting
lawfully and justifiably. Or as long as they don't get caught.

You see this all the time in the way that Americans admire outlaws
and pirates and the like. It's a Darwinian culture: The baddest and/or
sneakiest motherfucker wins and if they win then what they have done
is right.

A real commune must be more honest, but there's no need to write anything
down. Someone who isn't committed enough to memorize the goals and
guidelines has no business being there. And they have to be simple, because
only dishonest people want complex laws or tolerate them.

As for people changing. I guess. But that usually means you are dealing
with someone who wasn't actually committed in the first place, who
thought that they could change things to suit themselves later on
by manipulating people. By playing politics.

You just let people like that go. Or kick their asses out, whichever
is necessary.

But that's a profound level of change you are talking about, if it's real.
People change radically all the time in this culture and they don't leave
it, do they?

Got ya! :-)

Littlefoot

I discovered something totally cool today on our local online news! A fellow is making a documentary about the "back to the land movement" that happened HERE in the late 60's and early 70's. This should be the ultimate film about communes etc. I watched the trailer and already see some folks I know. I contacted the guy because he said he was looking for more folks to interview, and I've been here 33 years...
Here's a link to the news article.
http://hurherald.com/cgi-bin/db_scripts/articles?Action=user_view&db=articles_hurherald&id=26711

I discovered something totally cool today on our local online news! A fellow is making a documentary about the "back to the land movement" that happened HERE in the late 60's and early 70's. This should be the ultimate film about communes etc. I watched the trailer and already see some folks I know. I contacted the guy because he said he was looking for more folks to interview, and I've been here 33 years...
Here's a link to the news article.
http://hurherald.com/cgi-bin/db_scripts/articles?Action=user_view&db=articles_hurherald&id=26711

I checked it out. Very cool.

Along the same lines, here's a doctoral dissertation that will blow your minds:

http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/rw/2006/l.meijering/thesis.pdf

"Making a place of their own:
Rural intentional communities in Northwest Europe"

Louise Meijering

I meant to post this a long time ago, but spaced it out...



Littlefoot

As for people changing. I guess. But that usually means you are dealing
with someone who wasn't actually committed in the first place, who
thought that they could change things to suit themselves later on
by manipulating people. By playing politics.

Politics. That's exactly the problem that befalls most communes, at least that's been my experience, because you get people who somehow feel entitled to impose their will on others (isn't this the problem we have in this really huge commune we live in?). It's ironic that the reason most people go into these situations is for the freedom.

I agree the rules needn't be in writing, any more than one should need a pre-nuptual agreement to get married, provided everyone knows what the rules are, that's often the problem, so it helps if they're well defined and well understood, and not subject to interpretation.

There are only a few people I would even consider living on a commune with. We might even make a go of it one of these years...when the kids move out...

Politics. That's exactly the problem that befalls most communes, at least that's been my experience, because you get people who somehow feel entitled to impose their will on others (isn't this the problem we have in this really huge commune we live in?).

Sure is one of the big ones. Americans in particular are characterized by
their belief that they have a right to tell everyone in the world how to live.
Not limited to Americans, of course, but they have perfected they art.


It's ironic that the reason most people go into these situations is for the freedom.


There is always order. Some orders are better than others.


I agree the rules needn't be in writing, any more than one should need a pre-nuptual agreement to get married, provided everyone knows what the rules are, that's often the problem, so it helps if they're well defined and well understood, and not subject to interpretation.


There are only a few people I would even consider living on a commune with. We might even make a go of it one of these years...when the kids move out...[/QUOTE]

Why only a few people? That's sounds like intolerance and narrow-mindedness
to me. Sorry, but that's how I see it. Sounds like you have a very rigid set
of rules in mind and aren't going to tolerate anyone who will question your
authority.

Littlefoot

And you know best little foot dont you, how dare someone have an opinion of their own.. stupid americans.. ahh but don't you live in america too little foot.. well you know what they say.. love it or leave it or come up with a real plan to change it.. thank you very much. It seems to me you are the one who is intolerant.

sh

And you know best little foot dont you, how dare someone have an opinion of their own.. stupid americans.


Opinions are like assholes: Everyone has one.

Some opinions are based upon knowlegde and reason and some
are just self-serving nonsense.


. ahh but don't you live in america too little foot..


No. A country is composed of a geographical area and a culture. I
have almost nothing to do with American culture, so I don't live
in America. Neither do a lot of people that I know. We have our
own little world that we like a lot better than America.

Just north of me is the Canadian border. Take one step and you are
no longer in America, you are in Canada. But it's the same continent
and the same ecosystem and the same meadow....


well you know what they say.. love it or leave it


I decided to leave it. Without going anywhere. I'm not all the way out,
but am very close to the edge. And I know people who live in the
mountains whose lives wouldn't be changed one iota if America was
to vanish from the face of the Earth.


or come up with a real plan to change it.. thank you very much. It seems to me you are the one who is intolerant.

sh

Only of self-serving bullshit and willful ignorance.

I have a real and foolproof plan to change it. It's not mine, I didn't create it, but I share it
with those who will listen. The plan is working, albeit slowly. It has been implemented
and passed every test. There are many little invisible (to Americans) villages
scattered throughout the vastness of the Rocky Mountains where people live
without harming the Earth or exploiting other people or using brutality.

But almost everyone wants to make grand changes in the world without
making grand changes in their own lifestyle.

That obviously won't work.

"You must become the changes you want to see in the world." --Ghandi

LIttlefoot

Your Still Preaching To The Chior!! No one is disputing the thriving communities that are in place or the need for change.. It's you that is pissing everyone off. It's your attitude that is a turn off, and counteracts what you profess.

sh